A sister wrote in pointing out a fallacy in Michael Nugent’s unsubstantiated attack on religious belief. This is an example of one individual without much effort ripping apart the silliness of Nugent’s argument for an Ireland free from religion.
Listening to Michael Nugent on the radio yesterday I was struck by his oft-repeated soundbite, ‘ideas should not be protected’. He was using this as a means of belittling religion but failed to see that the notion that he himself was postulating ironically overlooked his own claim for protection.
His website banner calls for an ethical society, but outside of a belief in an Omnipotent Creator then ‘morality’ is simply a collection of ideas based on the whims of the majority, which if atheists get their way will indeed be protected.
So the next time Mr. Nugent spews out his soundbite, ‘ideas should not be protected’, agree with him and show him the door.
Related posts:
الأربعاء 22 محرم 1431 at 3:06 pm
OK, so he was wrong – does that mean all he says is wrong?
الأربعاء 22 محرم 1431 at 7:00 pm
Except where has Mr Nugent asked for his ideas to be protected?
“outside of a belief in an Omnipotent Creator then ‘morality’ is simply a collection of ideas based on the whims of the majority”
Not at all. An omnipotent creator, even if it asserts that something is goodor bad, is not itself good or bad and its opinion is just as much a whim as any human’s opinion. Its alleged assertions are not moral or a valid basis for morality. Nor are the opinions of “the majority”, however defined, a basis for moeality. A majority of people probably prefer U2 to Stockhausen; that does not make U2 good and Stockhausen bad. A lot of things are matters of taste, not morality.
الأربعاء 22 محرم 1431 at 8:04 pm
Good to see you not even attempt to excuse Nugent’s ignorance, sadly you’ve replaced it with your own.
An opinion is an entirely human concept, as for Allah, He says ‘Be’ and it is.
الأربعاء 22 محرم 1431 at 8:38 pm
No he doesn’t Mujaahid because he is an idea in your little insignificant head. Pray tell, what use is the cosmos??
الأربعاء 22 محرم 1431 at 8:47 pm
Insignificant I may be, but Allah is not an idea of mine Ross
The cosmos points us to the wonders of His creation, He specifically tells us to examine such things so that we might witness His wonders.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 1:29 am
“An opinion is an entirely human concept, as for Allah, He says ‘Be’ and it is”
That is an entirely human opinion. Are allah’s opinions entirely human concepts too? Even if allah says ‘Be’ and it is, is that true of his opinions? After all, allah is said to say that things are good or bad just because he says they are. This leads to interesting ironies, such as allah’s supposed beneficence and his enthusiasm for torture.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 2:28 am
No, what you’re offering is an opinion Thersites, what Allah did in saying ‘Be’ was a declarative force.
The paint on a masters canvas doesn’t have a say on what colours or tones best reproduce the idea in the artist’s mind, does it? Your problem is trying to view the Creator through your narrow experience.
There’s no contradiction in Allah having the capacity to both love and hate any more than it assumes you are a contradictory being.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 7:24 am
Nugent’s campaign, which I support, is calling for the state to withdraw advocacy, direct or tacit for any particular religion. It is emphatically not not calling for the banning of religion. If you want hold such beliefs, nobody is going to stop you, nor should they.
I don’t see how this is an “attack” on religion, or is your faith so weak that any questioning of it by non-believers who do not wish to be converted is perceived as an attack?
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 10:34 am
No, “As for Allah, He says ‘Be’ and it is” is two opinions. You have to show that the existence of allah is anything but an unsubstiantiated opinion before showing that He says ‘Be’ and it is.
“The paint on a masters canvas doesn’t have a say on what colours or tones best reproduce the idea in the artist’s mind, does it? ”
Then if the universe is a masters canvas there is no suchthing as good or bad, except aesthetically and aesthetics are also a matter of taste.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 4:47 pm
Milo – If your belief in atheism is so strong, why must you seek to relegate all other beliefs to the private sphere?
I have no problems with people questioning Islam, but as you well know with AI it’s not about questioning but ridicule and offense. To me, that indicates a weakness in their own argument.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 4:48 pm
Thersites – an opinion is an entirely human construct. As Allah is nothing like His creation then your argument has no basis.
الخميس 23 محرم 1431 at 8:44 pm
“Thersites – an opinion is an entirely human construct.” After all, if, as you appear to believe, good and evil are good and evil because allah says they are, then what is good and what is evilis merely a matter of allah’s opinion. For example, allah, we are told, forbids homosexual behaviour because it is an abomination. No reason or evidence is given so it is merely an opinion. A wise man said that we put a pretty high value on our opinions if we roast people alive for them. Allah rates his opinions so highly that he intends to roast people alive for ever for them.
“you well know with AI it’s not about questioning but ridicule and offense. To me, that indicates a weakness in their own argument.”
Why do you object to people making weak arguments against islam? What if people regard islam and its beliefs as ridiculous and offensive? Why shouldn’t they respond in kind?
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 7:14 pm
Ah yes Mujaahid of course it is for us to wonder at…what a cop out of an answer. Tell me then why are there things on the cosmos we will never see or experience and things that we will never nor cannot ever understand?? Wait…I can guess your answer – ‘because there are things only allah can understand’. Well that can’t be argued against, because it’s not an argument.
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 7:17 pm
Atheism is not a belief Mujaahid so it is not elevating itself above every other belief.
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 7:31 pm
No, Ross – the creation is finely tuned and all that is in place is to preserve the balance until such a time as Allah sees fit to bring it to a close. What is observable is however ample evidence of design and order that no accident could produce.
If you wish to believe that out of nothing a bang happened and this bang produced debris from nothing and then this debris somehow moulded itself into a spherical shape just the right distance from the sun to produce just the right conditions for a soup from whence you claim life would begin, and then develop into Ross – well frankly you go ahead, you have a better imagination that I do
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 9:29 pm
HAHAHAHAHAHA you don’t know how the earth became spherical????!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you really are an idiot. Also a load of dirt forming together. I don’t know if you actually know this but gravity doesn’t just keep your feet on the ground. Did you ever study physics??
Who said the bang came from nothing? Ever heard of a place called CERN?? They are investigating where it came from and I can assure you from somebody I know who works there that NONE of them are looking for a god. These are the people who understand and study the universe more than anybody else in the world and you think you and your backwards book can tell them how it works??? Please, nobody on this website is THAT stupid, are they??
I also refer you to another topic where I point out the size of the cosmos. It is clear you have read no books on scientific matters because if you did you would realise how stupid you sound. The size of the cosmos specifically allows such an event to happen as the earth being the right distance from the sun. It’s called something like the law of averages – ever heard of it?? Or do you not believe that the cosmos is billions of light years across?? Do you not believe that even one planet could end up the right distance from the sun because if you don’t then by experts’ reckoning you’re probably wrong about a billion times. I suggest you read last months Nat Geo on the exploration of space for earth like planets, it’s proving very fruitful.
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 9:57 pm
But I do know Ross, it’s you that resorts to guesswork
I’ve also heard of CERN. If they are not considering all the possibilities then it’s fair to say that any results they glean will be biased, is it not?
The books you speak of spoke of a spherical earth when your ancestors were cutting the throats of little children to appease the gods.
I agree that the size of the cosmos allows for the earth to become an inhabitable place, it’s a moot point – we’re here
The contention is how it happened. You resort to guesswork and chance, I believe in a Creator.
Oh and by the way, I’ve never claimed any expertise in the field of evolution at all, it’s a passing interest at best. However for an individual who places so much faith in it, you don’t appear to know what you’re talking about – and I can tell that from the little I’ve read.
الجمعة 24 محرم 1431 at 10:18 pm
You haven’t rebutted one of my points on evolution and I know exactly what I’m talking about. Clearly it’s not a passing interest for you because you know nothing about it. You have contributed nothing to the argument. You have not spoken of one piece of evidence to debunk evolution. It is clearly you who doesn’t understand it. I place no faith in evolution. I accept it for what it is – fact and the best and only scientifically verified theory of our origins.
You derided me for believing the earth came about by chance and I explained that it was actually highly likely to come about through chance so I was arguing on the contention of how it happened. It’s not a moot point when you make derisive remarks about the chances of it happening. We were arguing over how it got here and how it is inhabitable so it’s not a moot point at all. I just completely blew your *****point out of the water and now you’re trying to say it doesn’t matter. I resort to what we know to explain how we got here. You are doing the guesswork by inserting your god in where you don’t know the answers.
I never said they wouldn’t consider god, they’re just not looking for him. If he shows up, which we both know is never going to happen, of course they will accept it. The thing is, they know that millenia have passed and he’s never shown up so they’re not expecting him.
You and your ilk are still stoning women to death and chopping off heads and hands to appease your god. At least our ancestors had the excuse of ignorance.
السبت 25 محرم 1431 at 9:57 pm
You may well know what you’re talking about Ross, that doesn’t make it a fact and all your bleating and derision doesn’t help your cause. Tell me how life began with no ‘ifs’ or ‘buts’, show us the certainty we all wish for. Who in their right mind would swap assurance for doubt?
If you want a religious adherent to abandon a belief you have to have something to offer – you don’t! There are as many arguments for evolutionary origins as there are against, and yes I admit without any shame whatsoever it’s not my forte, like I said ‘a passing interest’. You however claim the opposite but have done a poor job in transmitting any relevant points.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 1:37 pm
While there are arguments against evolutionary origins you and I both know that none of them have toppled the theory because they are largely rubbish coming from people like you who don’t understand it and have other agendas. Unfortunately for you there is a plethora of evidence supporting evolution and not one single bit supporting your belief. Like I said when the discussion started I’m not going to outline the whole of evolutionary theory. I invite you instead to read any number of books on it before you go around bashing the idea and looking like an ignoramous. I have not said any ifs or buts regarding evolution, I have done regarding abiogenesis – you still seem to be confusing the two. The ifs are buts are because we don’t know exactly how it happened. You should swap ‘assurance’ for doubt when the evidence points out that your assured feeling is definitely wrong. There is nothing wrong with not knowing – there is something wrong with blind faith and lack of inquiry. At least I’m trying to find out how it all happened, you’ve given up.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 4:22 pm
So you’re saying YOU DON’T KNOW and you want Muslims to give up their certainty for your ignorance
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 5:01 pm
No I’m saying your certainty is ignorance
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 5:31 pm
The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about Ross, just about sums you up.
You’ve done nothing to prove your case, wallow in your ignorance if you will, but don’t expect the rest of us to follow your folly.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 9:40 pm
Exactly what you have done with evolution you fool. You are the one wallowing in your own ignorance you disgrace.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 9:48 pm
I know plenty about the world around me to know that the claims of islam are false. I don’t need a reading of the koran to find that out, though I am going to read it soon for a laugh.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 10:05 pm
He has no case to prove. He who claims to know something of the origins of the Universe is the one with the work to do to prove his case. Time to get to work. Sophistry won’t cut the mustard when dealing with intelligent people rather than mpac goons
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 10:13 pm
Sophistry is actually the perfect word to describe Mujaahid’s methods.
الأحد 26 محرم 1431 at 10:19 pm
Come come Garland, he has everything to prove as he has confidently asserted that there is no God. I have the testimony of time, history, numbers and most importantly revelation behind my belief, so as Ross has introduced a novel idea it is upon him to prove his premise. Something he, you and all others have failed to do.
I do hope you read the Quran Ross, many started off on the same road of ridicule and scorn and ended up devout believers. I guess it really depends on sincerity.
الاثنين 27 محرم 1431 at 12:13 am
‘The testimony of time, history, numbers and [...] revelation’ – there is no arguing with a fool like you Mujaahid. If you cannot see the folly in your argument you truly are an idiot. I hate Americanisms but the word bonehead seems particularly fitting. Tell me where the evidence for god is in time, history and tell me how numbers makes your argument any more sound. If it’s numbers you go by then, even if it were to somehow prove there is a god it would mean that islam is definitely wrong because it is a minority belief. As for time I don’t know where you’re going with that argument because it makes no sense. History is also a non-starter because you have failed to show how history points to the conclusion that there is a god or gods.
The idea of there being no god is not a novel idea. People have lacked belief in a god since time immemorial. You are postulating that there is something, it is down to you to prove it and just like your ‘debunking’ of evolution you have failed to produce one argument, not even a bad one up until your pathetic and laughable attempt above. As Garland said your bullshit won’t cut the mustard in intelligent debate. Even if you were right and there is a god you certainly don’t have the intelligence to argue for it. I know you’re going to make a remark about how I have not convinced you but don’t forget you are a boneheaded zealot so even if the truth were shoved in your face (ala evolution) you would still deny it.
الاثنين 27 محرم 1431 at 12:17 am
Oh and I’d like you point out that you’ve changed the topic once again Mujaahid. Why do you still believe when you know you can’t argue back??
الاثنين 27 محرم 1431 at 12:36 am
You have not convinced me Ross – happy! In fact I’d go so far as to say you’ve clearly demonstrated the weakness in your argument, cheers.
الاثنين 27 محرم 1431 at 1:34 pm
Please point out this weakness (once again you dismiss my argument without presenting any valid points yourself)
الاثنين 27 محرم 1431 at 9:15 pm
OK time for me to jump in and say something. There are many, many proofs of creation, take Nature for example and ecause you all seem to wrapped up in books about how humans came from fish to humans Ill make it really simple ok? So lets start. When the leaves of trees turn brown, you know its Autumn time right? and When the trees are bare you know its winter time right? and when you see buds on the trees you know its Spring time right? and when the fruit and flowers come what time of year is it? thats right Summer time.
Now do me a favour and forget evolution, its a clutch at straws effort to settle the fear people have about where we come from. Evolution is not proven, its not fact, thats why its still a theory, and we can never actually prove it because we have not got the technology or the resources to do that so I believe we were created because I have faith, you believe we came from monkeys because a man told you to believe it and you trust him ok, well done, what do you want a medal? We have different beliefs get the hell over it.
Now the proof of evolution is very limited and very slim, creation and belief in the creator has a lot of proof and unlimited angles and relevances in todays day and age.
May your eyes be opened from the idiocy of evolution and cop on to the fact of creation.
الأربعاء 29 محرم 1431 at 1:43 am
Okay time for you to jump out since you know nothing. It’s already been explained to you the difference between every day usage of the word theory and a scientific theory. Evolution is a fact, there is no disputing it. The evidence couldn’t be easier to see. Again I invite you, as I did Mujaahid, to read about it and find out more before you decide to knock the theory and come across as an idiot…and to think, you’re a medical student – perhaps even a doctor at this stage. You should be ashamed of yourself allowing your beliefs affect your decision making. It is you who have the fear about where we come from. You’re afraid that we don’t have a higher purpose. You’re afraid that maybe we do just have one life, it’s meaningless and you’re going to die and that’s the end.Creation has 0 proof. Nobody has seen the creator nor explained how he got there without resorting to ‘oh it’s beyond our understanding’ well sorry I’m just going to wait until it’s within our understanding before I throw my lot in with the creator. All the work that’s been done on finding out where we come from hasn’t revealed any creator. What has is revealed?? That we evolved, now why don’t you?
الخميس 30 محرم 1431 at 12:18 pm
Another thread left unanswered by the Mujaahideen brigade when they don’t have a leg to stand on.
الجمعة 01 صفر 1431 at 12:37 pm
Come on, someone answer
الجمعة 01 صفر 1431 at 9:53 pm
Someone……….Preferably Mujaahid since he left Whelan to jump in to his rescue. You also changed the topic once again without answering my point with a point of your own.
السبت 02 صفر 1431 at 2:41 pm
There is a fact of evolution Ross, but for you to use fact to support a take on origins is stretching things, don’t you think? You need to distinguish between fact and wishful thinking, one does not support the other.
السبت 02 صفر 1431 at 3:03 pm
The fact is that evolution supports our origins as sharing a single common ancestor. I never said evolution explains the origin of life, that would be abiogenesis. It’s Mujaahid who consistently confuses the two.
السبت 02 صفر 1431 at 6:34 pm
I think it’s you who is confused Ross. What Ross is saying here is that life somehow started (he doesn’t know how – we’ll call it spontaneous generation) and from that life evolved to produce the variety we see today. If of course you ignore the gaping gaps and the absence of so-called intermediary lifeforms, and of course the…ahem…living fossils.
On the first point, we have agreement – life did indeed just start and the fossil record attests to this. Ross attributes the beginning to … (he doesn’t know), we attribute it to the Creator, a belief shared by billions of people – right from the beginning of recorded history until now.
What Ross and his fellow goons want us to do is neglect the testimony of history, forget about revelation and just say we don’t know. If he were a door-to-door salesman he’d be asking for your money and offering nothing in return.
Come back what you have something substantial to offer Ross, until then – there’s the door!
السبت 02 صفر 1431 at 7:30 pm
Anybody who has followed our arguments knows that it is you who have failed to produce one piece of evidence of a creator. Again you demonstrate your complete ignorance on the topic when you say the fossil record does not support evolution. There are thousands of intermediary forms between us and the ancestors we share with chimpanzees. I suggest you google Australopithecus and homo erectus to have a look at ‘intermediary lifeforms’. The fact is that all living organisms and dead ones are ‘intermediary lifeforms’.
Better to admit I don’t know how life started than to postulate a creator for which I can provide no evidence. Of course you can use derisive remarks like spontaneous generation but you know that that almost certainly isn’t how it happened according to theories of abiogenesis.
Please Mujaahid do not leave this thread unanswered and tell me about these gaping gaps and absence of intermediary lifeforms. The fact that there are creatures alive today that resemble ancient lifeforms does nothing to negate the fact of evolution. Again I must remind you that there are people who spend their lives investigating our origins and they all say (apart from the nutter Behe who has his own agenda and has been discredited in a court of law) that we evolved from a common ancestor. You come along with little or no apparent knowledge of evolution and try to make a counter claim without any arguments. You pathetic need to have the answers, no matter how unsupported by evidence, is laughable – just like your pathetic attempts at distracting from the real issue of you having no arguments of your own.
السبت 02 صفر 1431 at 7:31 pm
As for ‘revelation’, it is up to you to prove that it is indeed revelation (admin edit: irrelevant contribution). If your revealed knowledge conflicts with observed phenomena in the natural world then it is not revealed knowledge I’m afraid, and since it does, it’s not.
الأحد 03 صفر 1431 at 2:25 pm
That’s amazing news Ross and I’m sure the scientific world will adorn you with accolades – Ross of the Gaps.
But please let us be privy to this startling evidence of yours that proves an unbroken line with all intermediary life forms all the way to the beginning.
Of course, there’s still one insurmountable problem – how did the beginning happen? But we’ll cross that bridge when we get to it. In the meantime I really look forward to the fossil record that shows us how it all happened.
الأحد 03 صفر 1431 at 4:40 pm
Again you demonstrate your ignorance. We are lucky to have any fossils at all, let alone the massive collection there is. Of course the line is going to be broken – if you knew about evolution you’d know that in order to have an unbroken line you’d need a fossil of everything that ever lived. Fossils form very rarely therefore an unbroken line is impossible. There are however enough fossils to show how we evolved and I invite you to google them for yourself. If you want an unbroken line you ask for too much – pity you don’t have such stringent requirements for proof of allah eh?!!!
You are also forgetting another thing and that is that even were the fossil record to be weak, which it isn’t, there is still an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting evolution such as DNA and anatomy, or are you suggesting allah made animals along the lines of different themes???? This of course is going back over old ground isn’t it Mujaahid since the original topic on evolution in which I mentioned these things and you of course ignored it all like a fool.
I’m afraid your ‘insurmountable problem’ will likely be solved in our lifetime but of course, like the evidence for evolution you’ll ignore it to suit yourself and your nutty religion. Nevertheless I look forward to the day when the final nail (I say final because there have been plenty already, such as evolution) is driven into the coffin on your religion.
Once again I would like you to present an argument against evolution and tell me about it. I suggest you youtube things on christian creationists because they come up with pretty much the same crap that you do and it is dealt with countless times over and over and over and over and over and over again. Of course it still goes on because people like you like spreading lies to feed your kick you get from blissful religious ignorance. And to think islam was supposed to be in harmony with science…
الأحد 03 صفر 1431 at 5:52 pm
Blah..blah…blah Ross, you have nothing mate, you know it, I know it and every reader reading your sorry excuses for willing ignorance knows it. Your boasts amount to nothing, your arguments are based on supposition and you offer nothing.
As for an argument against the evolution you present, I think you do a good enough job of dissuading people, there really isn’t anything I could add that would do a better job
By the way, do you think it’s a possibility that aliens populated our planet Ross (stifled snigger)…… I ask because your Guru, Dawkins, considers it a possibility…snigger..snigger